Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

A place to discuss all things Webley. As this is probably the most collected airgun maker we felt it deserved a section of its own.
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Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by zooma » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:50 am

Tonight at RMTC I was lucky to gain the assistance of Graham and Phil to help me put some lead down the barrel of my "new to me" .177 Turkish Tempest (TT) so we could compare it against my well-run in .177 British Tempest ( BT).

Between the three of us ( and without giving away any age details) we could easily call on 100+ years worth or target air pistol shooting experience - seen - done it - got the T shirt. This was not a bunch of Muppets but a determined group of three that really wanted to put this much discussed topic to the test.

The TT started the evenings test as being a nasty tight little pistol (my opinion) that was hard to cock - but it felt nice and taut when fired. We were all of the opinion that if this s/h but "as new" looking pistol had been shot at all then there was no evidence of it to be seen or felt - it was very tight, dieseling, and to all intents and purpose's - new! The BT in comparison was much easier to cock and felt a lot smoother.

Cocking the TT pistol was heavy going, but after we had all had several rounds of shots it came around to my turn to apply the muscle again and I noticed when returning the barrel to the closed position that it required almost as much effort to do this as it did to cock it (!) - slight exaggeration maybe, but you get the idea.

Fortunately Graham had a spray can of Napier gun oil with him so the linkages and the barrel stirrup were given a spray to see if that would help - and after a few more shots it did ! The pistol became much easier to cock and the barrel returned to the closed position without too much resistance at all - big change.

Now shooting it was a lot less work and we actually began to enjoy it and started adjusting the sights until we found a position that ( surprisingly) suited us all.

We were aiming at a RedRob bell target and constantly painted the surface so we could keep a close eye on the groupings we were all achieving with both of the Tempest pistols.

Graham started the bell ringing and then Phil and I followed. Now the groupings were getting nice and tight around the bull with the TT - apart from the odd "called" flyer.

When we started the test the TT pistol was so hard to cock it had taken it's toll on all three of us, and we began to notice this more as the night wore on - but now we were beginning to enjoy it and also adjusted the sights on the BT as well......and a .177 Senior that I had picked up earlier today ;)

The results of our sustained Webley shoot-out was shocking as the Turkish Tempest not only produced the tightest groups, but also had a better trigger than the British Tempest...........and just to really put the boot in, it also blew away the Senior as well :think:

To compensate for the shock defeat of the British made products we all agreed that the shiny plastic front guard on the TT did not look very good against the matt black body and matt black grip - (even though the quality of the finish was actually better than the BT).

As we evaluated the results of our full and exhaustive evenings testing we had to conclude that the TT was the most accurate of the pistols tested by consistently producing the tightest groups, it also had the nicest trigger and the best finish.

Neither of the Tempest pistols had been adjusted or "improved" in any way and both started the night being shot with Eley Wasp pellets before we switched to HOBBY as the control pellet for most of the shooting and all of the comparative testing.

The Senior did not get anything like as much shooting as the Tempests because it was not really part of the test, but it did feel very nice and smooth to cock and close, and the trigger was the lightest of the three Webleys we were shooting - but the groups were the worst by some margin (!) so at the end of the night Dr Graham took it away with him to see if he could do anything to improve it by the next time we meet.

This result was NOT what we expected, and since we all admire the fine British craftsmanship we enjoy to see and feel on the "proper" steel Webley pistols it was not the result we really wanted to see either - but it was what we found during this concentrated test

..........but we will be back with the .177 Senior following it's medical, and hopefully with my "F" type mint Premier ( as soon as I can find a .177 barrel for it) so we can see if we can get any closer to the Turkish Tempest's very surprising victory results !
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by BaggieBoy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:15 am

Great stuff guys...and it must be really good to get the chance to shoot in the company of like minded individuals. Clearly an interesting session...and some useful info for us Webley fans to reflect on. Would like to hear more on this in due course. .

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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by Certus » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Thanks for posting your first impressions of the 'Turkish Tempest' which makes very interesting reading.

I must admit to being one of those 'purist' Webley enthusiasts whose interest was limited to all steel pistols produced up until the mid-seventies.

I never considered buying a Tempest and only picked up a 'Turkish' example on a whim just to see bad it was compared to my 'real' Webleys.

Like you, I have been pleasantly how well made and well these pistols actually perform.

I have owned mine for about 6 months now and can usually hold the black aiming area on the 10 metre precision target with an unsupported single handed hold.

Although I never intended to use it much when I first bought it, I now find myself shooting it on a regular basis and have even ordered a pair of wood grips as a bit of an upgrade.

Have you attempted to adjust the trigger weight on either version as it appears to have had no effect on either of the two 'Turkish' pistols I have encountered ?

Having said that, the triggers were really quite good straight out of the box and both broke quite crisply at a reasonable weight, so attempted adjustment was really only experimental.

Look forward to hearing how things progress once your pistol gets 'run in' a bit.

Regards

Brian

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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by pmh » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:12 pm

An interesting session indeed.

I own a British Tempest in .22 and the forward recoil is much less noticeable than it is in .177 though I am not normally a fan of . 22 pistols. I picked this up add it was cheap.

I was perplexed about the finish on the Turkish model as a shiny rear pay would have looked nicer than the matt.

It does get a bit hard work after a while, as these are not the easiest of pistols to cock, especially when new.

Whilst they are not for the staunch Webley fan, they should be in every Webley collectors portfolio, as they are still part of their history.

Kind regards,



Phil
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by zooma » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:16 pm

Maybe we could seek special permission to test the .22 Tempest at RMTC one Thursday evening ( and other .22 Webley's) as a "one-off" test as although it is only the .177 calibre that can be used in any regular target shooting competitions, it would be nice to compare the shooting characteristics of the .22 Webley pistols directly against the .177 variants under similar controlled conditions?
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by pmh » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:51 pm

I'll bring it along on Thursday night.

As it will be shot upstairs against the bell targets I am sure permission will be granted.

I only have 5.5mm pellets at the moment, I can't find my blue tin wasps.

These guns are clearly made for 5.6mm pellets, and 5.5mm are quite loose.

Kind regards,



Phil
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by zooma » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:12 pm

RossMod sells the 5.5 and the 5.6 Wasps - shall I bring a Blue tin of the 5.6 Wasps with me.............and my .22 Premier Mk 1 and Premier Mk2 ?

I am told .22 Hobby work well too - do you have any of these?
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by pmh » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:26 am

I may well have some Hobby somewhere, though I do think all the RWS pellets are 5.5mm.

That said, I am sure it won't make that much difference for an evenings comparison.

It would be good to do a .22 pistol comparison amongst the "classics", so the more the merrier.

We may well, however, have to acquire a "loader" for the evening. I wonder if the Y.T.S scheme is still in operation? :whistle:

Kind regards,



Phil
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by Certus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:51 am

pmh wrote:I may well have some Hobby somewhere, though I do think all the RWS pellets are 5.5mm.

That said, I am sure it won't make that much difference for an evenings comparison.

It would be good to do a .22 pistol comparison amongst the "classics", so the more the merrier.

We may well, however, have to acquire a "loader" for the evening. I wonder if the Y.T.S scheme is still in operation? :whistle:

Kind regards,

Phil
Hi Guys,

Be sure to let us know you get on with "The Great Webley Pistol Race".

Regards

Brian

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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by zooma » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:56 am

Hi Brian,

My grandfather "George Humphreys" came from Worthing, so if you are ever "up north" please call in to see us - it would be nice to know how thing are in the old "homestead".

..........bring your Webley's with you (of course!).

ATB - Bob.
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by pmh » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:35 pm

This has started me thinking as to whether there is room for a Webley competition.

There are certainly enough shooters out there, along with variation in the models, to gain interest.

Perhaps Brian could give some thought to the possibilities of category: model range, or pistols made between xx and xx spring to mind.

This could be run along the lines of the benchrest, in the first instance, where shooters a target and submit scores, and we could allow .22 to cater for all shooters of such pistols.

The Webley Challenge, Wobbly Webleys, come to mind for a title.

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Phil
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Re: Webley Postal Competition ?

Post by zooma » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:44 am

If you really want to run a separate competition exclusively for Webley pistols then the existing MPL rules would work fine - the only difference being that the only pistol type used must be a Webley springer and we may have to jig something if you think .22 should be included - but since everyone agree's that the .22 Webley pistol is easier to shoot and obviously the hole size is bigger then we should award a bonus to the .177 shooters in the same way as we do the kickers in the MPL series.

Maybe +3 points per card if shot with a .177. Inward scoring for both as normal

No regular .22 air pistol competition would be permitted in most clubs (including ours) so this would be a real shoot from home competition if it were ever to get started.

Although I like Webley pistols I think we have enough competitions to take part in already.

In our club we have the MPL and Classic Carbon League as well as the Dorset League and the ELEY competition so I would not take part in yet another competition as I also want some time to enjoy some casual shooting and to enjoy myself as I try to shoot all of my pistol collection on a regular basis.

For me personally this would be "one competition too many" - but I may well shoot one of my Webley pistols in the 6 yard MPL postal series now and again so this would take care of my desire to shoot any Webley pistol I own whenever the mood takes me without being committed to a specific Webley competition.

I am probably in the minority of Webely pistol owners when I also say that the only international calibre that is ever used in air weapons for paper target competition is .177 and I think it should stay that way !
Last edited by zooma on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Webley Postal Competition ?

Post by zooma » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:19 am

I should also say in response to my own comments about the possible Webley competition that there are a lot of Webley owners out there that shoot and enjoy their .22 air pistols, and if there was a demand for a series like this I would still be keen to help modify and publish the rules to cater for it and to help run the competition to include the .22 pistols as well as the .177 calibre.

My personal time availability to commit to another competition does not mean that this is a bad idea - and when I retire next year I may have some more time to think again about this as well :dance:

My own thoughts on .177 being the only caliber to shoot paper target happens to fall in line with the agreed international standard, but that does not mean that I do not respect other peoples opinions, and if enough .22 Webley spring powered pistol shooters pledge their support then the series should run and include them.

The comment about most clubs not allowing .22 air weapons to shoot in them for any regular competition though is not an opinion - more of an observation - and the clubs do this for very good reasons!
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Re: Turkish Tempest v British Tempest

Post by pmh » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:48 am

My thoughts where more along a simple forum competition, run by one of the members, rather than a competition similar to the current MPL.

Kind regards,



Phil
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Re: Webley Postal Competition ?

Post by zooma » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:33 pm

pmh wrote:My thoughts where more along a simple forum competition, run by one of the members, rather than a competition similar to the current MPL.

Kind regards,



Phil

Even so - every competition needs some rules, so the ready made existing MPL rules only need a minor tweak to accommodate the Webley series if it were to get started............and the MPL is a simple competition -perhaps (in both it's guises) the best and easiest competition ever offered to the 6 yard postal and 10 meter club shooter.

It would save whoever takes it on a lot of time and effort as we have spent all the time already over the last 3 years bashing-out the rules and amending them when they were not as comprehensive as they should be or to cover situations that cropped up that nobody thought about at the time.

It would just be one less thing to worry for the organiser about, and I would be happy to help with this once those taking part made it clear what they would like the competition to do for them and how they would like it to work.

............but maybe the Webley spring pistol shooters would just like to join in with the existing 6 yard postal competition ?

If there were any competitors that could only shoot .22 at home them maybe they could join in with a simple deduction of 3 points per card ( as an example) to keep things simple and to avoid more competitions than the number of shooters available could actually support.

We are in danger of reaching an overload situation if we just keep adding more competitions, so maybe it would be better to try and accommodate any shooters that feel left out into an existing competition instead?
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