webleyjunior pistol

A place to discuss all things Webley. As this is probably the most collected airgun maker we felt it deserved a section of its own.
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shotgun sam
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webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:06 am

I have an old webley junior pistol that I was given the rear sight is the solid metal notch type and the pistol is a 177 smooth bore.

The notch on the rear sight is not central but cut to the left hand sight can anyone tell me why this is the case as all the other pistols of this type that I have ever seen the notch is central.

Thanks

Sam

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:21 am

The Webley Junior first appeared in 1929 shortly after the larger Mk1 was introduced in 1924. These pre-war pistols are the rarest and initially came with ribbed wood grips quickly replaced with ribbed tin grips in the early thirties.

Production was suspended during the war but resumed shortly after hostilities ceased. Strangely, the first examples had non-adjustable sights relying on a fixed 'V' cut into the rear of the cylinder. This 'V' was always cut in a central position, so I can only presume somebody may have a filed an offset in the sight on your pistol in an attempt to make a lateral adjustment. The tin grips were now made of plastic and by around 1952 Webley introduced a laterally adjustable rear sight still without provision for vertical adjustment.

This model continued until replaced by the final alloy framed Mk2 Junior which was sold by Webley from the mid 1970s until the company ceased production in the UK in 2005.

The majority of Juniors were produced in smoothbore .177 calibre, but rifled barrels were available towards the end of their production. I guess the idea was that younger owners would find it cheaper to re-use darts in their pistols rather than having to keep buying pellets. Although darts can be used in rifled barrels being made from steel they can quickly damage the rifling.

It sounds like your Junior is an early post-war second series pistol dating from the early 1950s. Webley replaced Ser Nos with Batch Nos after the war so accurate dating is difficult. One general dating aid can be found in the stamping of the address on the side of the frame. If there is a 'B4' Post code after 'BIRMINGHAM' the pistol was definitely made after Webley moved from their Weaman St address in 1958.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Brian
Last edited by Certus on Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shotgun sam
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:57 pm

Brian,

Thanks for getting back to me here are some photos of what I am talking about can you let me know what you think

Sam
Attachments
webley rear view.jpg
webley front of rear view.jpg

shotgun sam
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:00 pm

Brian,

It just says Birmingham 4 there is no postcode the batch number on the front says 916 if thay means anything to you.

Sam

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:21 am

Hello Sam,
The rear sight slot on your Junior is the correct shape, but looks like it has been carefully filed by somebody to make a lateral adjustment to the sight picture. The address BIRMINGHAM 4 is also correct for a pistol made before the Company moved from the Weaman St premises in 1958. The non-adjustable rear sight indicates that the pistol was produced in the early fifties as a lateral adjustment was introduced around 1952. Unfortunately, the 916 is Batch No and not a Ser No which means it could re-appear on later batches and consequently cannot be used as a guide to manufacturing date. A picture of the grips would help as the very first Juniors to appear after the war had a slightly extended area at the top of the grip presumably to act as a thumb rest.

Here is a picture of one of my Juniors which would be of a similar age to your own.

Image

Regards

Brian

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:51 pm

Brian,

Here is a close up of the grip as requested thanks for all the help

Sam
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grip1.jpg

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:08 pm

Hello Sam,

As you can see when comparing the grips on your pistol with the picture of mine, yours has the slightly extended grip plate making it much rarer and consequently more desirable to collectors.

Given the above, I would date the manufacture of your pistol to 1946-1948 .

A picture of the complete pistol would aid in a more accurate estimation of value, but out of interest, I would estimate the value of unboxed 'Juniors' in reasonable condition as follows:

Pre-war 'Wooden grips' £200-£300.
Pre-war 'Tinplate' grips £100-£150.
Post-war ' Extended' grips (your pistol) £100-£150.
Post-war 'Standard' grips £60-£80

So, you have an an example of one of the rarer variations of the 'Junior'. As Webley pistols were manufactured to a very high standard and each would have been subjected to an inspection process prior to leaving the factory it's unlikely yours would have been sold with an offset rear sight. However, the modified rear sight shouldn't greatly affect the value of the pistol should you ever decide to sell it.

You now have the basis for starting a collection of these fine pistols. You might be interested in taking a look at some other Webley related posts in the Air Pistol section to get some idea of what you might add next.

Beware though as it's a slippery slope once you get started !

Regards

Brian






Post-war
Last edited by Certus on Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by pmh » Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:17 pm

Further information on Webley pistols, and the fine craftsmanship contained within, can be obtained from zunmik, who I am sure would be happy to assist. :lol: :clap: :dance: :whistle:

Kind regards,



Phil
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I now have so many airguns I've had to make a list, which is >>HERE<<
>>North Manchester Target Club<<

shotgun sam
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:52 pm

Brian,
Here is a full photo of the pistol to help you date the age of it as requested.
Also there is a photo of the MK2 Junior and the Tempest I have so the collection has started.

Sam
Attachments
webley pistols.jpg
webley junior.jpg

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:47 am

Hi Sam,

You have a PM relating to your Webley 'Junior'.

Regards

Brian

shotgun sam
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:38 pm

Brian,

Thanks for everything.

Sam

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:10 pm

Hi Sam,

Your'e very welcome.

Regards

Brian

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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by zooma » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:17 pm

I also have a Junior with the extended grip and a non-adjustable rear sight.( see picture link below)

The pistol shoots really well and the lack of windage adjustment on the rear sight I found to be easily overcome by the position of the finger pad on the trigger.

Being a small pistol it is easy for the trigger finger to position too far over the trigger blade and causing the shots to go off-centre, but repositioning the the trigger finger pad centrally on the trigger pulls everything central onto the target again!

The height adjustment is achieved with the position of the aiming mark - no problem.

http://bobsairguns.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=164" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have other old Junior pistols that show the same two-tone ageing as yours - but this one although older is black all over as maybe it had a different finish to the others?

http://bobsairguns.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=165" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://bobsairguns.com/index.php?option ... Itemid=166" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any thoughts about this alternative ageing and the reasons for it Brian ?
Feinwerkbau P40 Tricolour wanted.........still !
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by Certus » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:35 pm

Hello Bob,

I have always understood the 'two tone' finish on some Webley Juniors was due to the effect of the colouring process on the different metals used for the frame and air cylinder / barrel. As far as I'm aware the frames were made from malleable iron whereas the air cylinders /barrels were grade 'A' steel. Whatever the cause, the result can be very pleasing to the eye, even if the cause was accidental. As you rightly say, the two tone effect can be a bit random with some older pistols not exhibiting any variation in colouring.

I must have seen hundreds of Juniors, but have only come across two 'Extended Grip' examples so they must very rare.

As I also shoot muzzle loading revolvers with fixed sights 'aiming off' is something I have become accustomed to and I have found the Junior to be consistently accurate at 6yds.

Regards

Brian

shotgun sam
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Re: webleyjunior pistol

Post by shotgun sam » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:04 pm

Now knowing a bit more of the history of the pistol I am glad that I said yes to taking the pistol rather than the person throwing it in the bin.
It had been taken apart years ago and I got it as a project as I had one when I was a youngster I knew how to replace/repair what I was given.

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